Mon ami, many thanks for this. Indeed, what phronema there is is only the mind of Christ that is manifest only in love. There is no “Orthodox phronema” apart from this — not even on Mount Athos or in a second corrected baptism.
Thank you for this Steve! Great writing as always… I can identify in many ways as I hold my encounters with God, my conservative evangelical background and now my experience in theological academia—three different experiences that are very hard to integrate and often feel at odds with one another. And yet they are all under the same umbrella in a way. Your writing always makes me laugh. I was called into the office many times when I was in ministry at a mega church. :)
Thanks again, Steve. You put words on what I came to believe as an Evangelical Protestant (also raised RC, left during my late college years). By the time I got to Orthodoxy at age 53, I expected at least some of the same - so much so that I asked God to please show me the problems as well as the good things that attracted me. Well, that was the time when the OCA elected Met. Jonah, and I had friends among other jurisdictions and heard from them, too, so I guess God answered that one :) God also knew my unarticulated but very sincere prayer that I would find voices close to the heart of what I was finding out about the good of Orthodoxy, and not go off on weird tangents or following personalities. I think I listened to every "Our Life in Christ" episode on my way in, by the way, and also Pvta Jeannie Constantinou and Fr Tom Hopko. And then Fr Stephen Freeman; if what I hear or read doesn't "chime" with what he writes and what I hear in the liturgical services, I hold it very, very lightly.
Again, it's a blessing you're still letting us in on your thoughts and struggles. God keep you.
What is the rationale for using the Greek word 'phronema' when we have the perfectly good English word 'mindset' and can't understand anything by 'phronema' except mindset?
I have a Curmudgeophan cartoon where he says, "You want to know how to get an Orthodox phronema?! Stop saying phronema, hell... you just heard it for the first time last week!" :)
I was on blogger before Orthodoxy but Young Curmudgeon was on Wordpress. I renamed it Slow Literature and it's still there, I just don't get much interaction since Fr. Stephen Freeman moved his blog to AF. I was pulling a lot of attention from interacting with his Wordpress blog back in the day. I suppose I also shifted from theology to literature as my conversion receded into the past.
Substack is mostly to promote my book Stoneheart, and my dear coauthor is Reformed Baptist so I try not to get into theology on my blog here. But I follow a lot of Orthodox writers.
IDK, there's a lot about what I might call "deep Orthodoxy" that scares the shit out of me and I don't know if I would have converted if things hadn't been presented very softly and gently to me back in the day.
Steve - well written. Having grown up in one of those “heretical” (sarc) instrumentalist Stone/Campbell churches (and some of my family were non-instrumentalists) - this whole piece resonated. One of the things I struggled long with in my journey from there through Anglicanism/Episcopalianism to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the fork in the road that I faced between the RCC and Eastern Orthodoxy was whether in the end it was all just another personal Protestant moment of pick and choose. In my opinion, that is something that almost every inquirer from any Protestant background must face in North America, at least in coming to Orthodoxy (or the RCC), or perhaps much more rarely, the various other early Christian expressions of our separated brethren, e.g. the Coptic, Syrian Jacobite, Malankaran, Assyrian, Chaldean, Ethiopian Orthodox churches. Now some
20 years on from that “last Protestant act” (sarc again) I just try to accept that this is what I was doing and that I will have such tendencies still. But I am also very wary of those who counsel blind obedience to a spiritual father, a certain camp in Orthodoxy, or who are too quick to cast judgements on others who are seeking Christ
- reminding myself of the woman at the well (St Photini) and the Centurion. I think your touchstone that the Christian teaching of is of love, humility, and the fruits of the Spirit, of following Christ in his personhood and striving to keep his commandments (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount) is a pretty solid ground. Anyway, much could be said to one another round a campfire, but I appreciate your essay here very much. -Pax
☦️ 🔔 ⛪Thank you, from a former bible belt evangel-prot. I was moved, but I do remember hanging on to the bench during an altar call at falls creek back in '76 so as not to go up. Was baptized at a disciples of Christ church in '79. No one 🤔 really does 'sola-scriptura', we all adhere to some dogma. 🎪 🐕 🌊 🛶 🪓 When I read Flannery O'Connor as an adult, I really can relate. 🇺🇲✍🏼📘🦚🍑 Lubbock, got tumbleweed?
Thanks for this, Steve. I'm "cradle" Orthodox. In the past, I tried to explain that the defining characteristic of an Orthodox person is not WHAT a person thinks and acts, but HOW a person thinks and acts. In the community where I grew up there were persons who didn't know a lot about formal Orthodox dogmatics or formal praxis but whose thinking was genuinely Orthodox in that their actions were without malice; they were genuinely good people. As time passed and the generations progressed, the community seemed to have fewer and fewer of those people, although they were the sons and daughters of the first group that I knew. I'm not a sociologist, so I can't, with any certainty, pinpoint the cause of that change; I only observed it. Perhaps "worldly" influences or contact with denominational persons influenced them. Growing up, the community was shepherded by a series of priests and bishops, who exhibited the Orthodox mindset, until the recent decade or so. I attended Seminary part-time to broaden my understanding of Orthodox history, dogmatics, and praxis. I learned the formalities of Orthodoxy. But it didn't answer my concerns about why the mindset of those we call the "Orthodox faithful" (people who attend church, keep the fasts, and observe the traditions, with a small "t") had undergone an apparent change. At this point, I feel disillusioned and disappointed. Many Orthodox churches seem to be run as businesses, with the bottom line being affordability (taking in enough funds for paying the priest, maintaining the physical building, keeping up appearances by following the traditions with a small "t"). The spiritual health of the parishioners, especially of the young members, doesn't seem to be given much importance. I hope that this phenomenon is only in a small minority of churches in the region where I live, and that there remain Orthodox persons with the mind of Christ elsewhere.
Thank you, Dorothy. Some of the loveliest Orthodox people I've known are probably the most theologically "ignorant". It seems like Christ and "Orthodoxy" are just in their DNA. I've often wondered if our American culture eventually sucks the life out of that kind of organic life of faith, or if it is even possible to have that kind of spirituality here.
Hi Amber, For some reason I felt compelled to reply, though please know I am in no way qualified to do so. I am not formally part of an Orthodox church (I've been to one Divine Liturgy in my life) though I think my heart lies with this understanding of Christianity. Coming from a background similar to what Mr. Robinson described here I have had reservations like yours about churches in general not just Orthodox. I found some statements made by the Orthodox Church of America reassuring regarding how the Church as a whole feels towards non-Orthodox Christians (as opposed to random opinons from the internet).
"The Church believes as well that salvation depends upon the actual life of the person, and God alone is capable of judging since He alone knows the secrets of each mind and heart. Only God is capable of judging how well a man lives according to the measure of grace, faith, understanding, and strength given to him."
"But once again, let it be clear that every man is judged by God alone according to the actual truth and love in his life. This goes for Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike. And although the Orthodox confess that the fulness of truth and love is found in the life of the church, nominal church membership or formal assent to some doctrines does not at all guarantee salvation."
Thank you for taking time to share this, Cristian. I appreciate it. I had heard talk in an Orthodox church that if you aren't Orthodox, you are going to hell and this thought was reiterated recently on a discussion on YouTube. I thank you for taking time to copy what you did from the OCA. That makes me feel a lot better.
Mon ami, many thanks for this. Indeed, what phronema there is is only the mind of Christ that is manifest only in love. There is no “Orthodox phronema” apart from this — not even on Mount Athos or in a second corrected baptism.
Thank you for this Steve! Great writing as always… I can identify in many ways as I hold my encounters with God, my conservative evangelical background and now my experience in theological academia—three different experiences that are very hard to integrate and often feel at odds with one another. And yet they are all under the same umbrella in a way. Your writing always makes me laugh. I was called into the office many times when I was in ministry at a mega church. :)
Thanks again, Steve. You put words on what I came to believe as an Evangelical Protestant (also raised RC, left during my late college years). By the time I got to Orthodoxy at age 53, I expected at least some of the same - so much so that I asked God to please show me the problems as well as the good things that attracted me. Well, that was the time when the OCA elected Met. Jonah, and I had friends among other jurisdictions and heard from them, too, so I guess God answered that one :) God also knew my unarticulated but very sincere prayer that I would find voices close to the heart of what I was finding out about the good of Orthodoxy, and not go off on weird tangents or following personalities. I think I listened to every "Our Life in Christ" episode on my way in, by the way, and also Pvta Jeannie Constantinou and Fr Tom Hopko. And then Fr Stephen Freeman; if what I hear or read doesn't "chime" with what he writes and what I hear in the liturgical services, I hold it very, very lightly.
Again, it's a blessing you're still letting us in on your thoughts and struggles. God keep you.
Dana
Thanks Dana... Good to see you still around after all these years!
What is the rationale for using the Greek word 'phronema' when we have the perfectly good English word 'mindset' and can't understand anything by 'phronema' except mindset?
I have a Curmudgeophan cartoon where he says, "You want to know how to get an Orthodox phronema?! Stop saying phronema, hell... you just heard it for the first time last week!" :)
Heh, heh. I used to have a blog called Young Curmudgeon.
Was that on Blogger way back? I'm pretty sure I read it. :)
I was on blogger before Orthodoxy but Young Curmudgeon was on Wordpress. I renamed it Slow Literature and it's still there, I just don't get much interaction since Fr. Stephen Freeman moved his blog to AF. I was pulling a lot of attention from interacting with his Wordpress blog back in the day. I suppose I also shifted from theology to literature as my conversion receded into the past.
Substack is mostly to promote my book Stoneheart, and my dear coauthor is Reformed Baptist so I try not to get into theology on my blog here. But I follow a lot of Orthodox writers.
IDK, there's a lot about what I might call "deep Orthodoxy" that scares the shit out of me and I don't know if I would have converted if things hadn't been presented very softly and gently to me back in the day.
Wow! Thank you. Subscribing today
Steve - well written. Having grown up in one of those “heretical” (sarc) instrumentalist Stone/Campbell churches (and some of my family were non-instrumentalists) - this whole piece resonated. One of the things I struggled long with in my journey from there through Anglicanism/Episcopalianism to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the fork in the road that I faced between the RCC and Eastern Orthodoxy was whether in the end it was all just another personal Protestant moment of pick and choose. In my opinion, that is something that almost every inquirer from any Protestant background must face in North America, at least in coming to Orthodoxy (or the RCC), or perhaps much more rarely, the various other early Christian expressions of our separated brethren, e.g. the Coptic, Syrian Jacobite, Malankaran, Assyrian, Chaldean, Ethiopian Orthodox churches. Now some
20 years on from that “last Protestant act” (sarc again) I just try to accept that this is what I was doing and that I will have such tendencies still. But I am also very wary of those who counsel blind obedience to a spiritual father, a certain camp in Orthodoxy, or who are too quick to cast judgements on others who are seeking Christ
- reminding myself of the woman at the well (St Photini) and the Centurion. I think your touchstone that the Christian teaching of is of love, humility, and the fruits of the Spirit, of following Christ in his personhood and striving to keep his commandments (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount) is a pretty solid ground. Anyway, much could be said to one another round a campfire, but I appreciate your essay here very much. -Pax
☦️ 🔔 ⛪Thank you, from a former bible belt evangel-prot. I was moved, but I do remember hanging on to the bench during an altar call at falls creek back in '76 so as not to go up. Was baptized at a disciples of Christ church in '79. No one 🤔 really does 'sola-scriptura', we all adhere to some dogma. 🎪 🐕 🌊 🛶 🪓 When I read Flannery O'Connor as an adult, I really can relate. 🇺🇲✍🏼📘🦚🍑 Lubbock, got tumbleweed?
Pray on amigo.....
Thanks for this, Steve. I'm "cradle" Orthodox. In the past, I tried to explain that the defining characteristic of an Orthodox person is not WHAT a person thinks and acts, but HOW a person thinks and acts. In the community where I grew up there were persons who didn't know a lot about formal Orthodox dogmatics or formal praxis but whose thinking was genuinely Orthodox in that their actions were without malice; they were genuinely good people. As time passed and the generations progressed, the community seemed to have fewer and fewer of those people, although they were the sons and daughters of the first group that I knew. I'm not a sociologist, so I can't, with any certainty, pinpoint the cause of that change; I only observed it. Perhaps "worldly" influences or contact with denominational persons influenced them. Growing up, the community was shepherded by a series of priests and bishops, who exhibited the Orthodox mindset, until the recent decade or so. I attended Seminary part-time to broaden my understanding of Orthodox history, dogmatics, and praxis. I learned the formalities of Orthodoxy. But it didn't answer my concerns about why the mindset of those we call the "Orthodox faithful" (people who attend church, keep the fasts, and observe the traditions, with a small "t") had undergone an apparent change. At this point, I feel disillusioned and disappointed. Many Orthodox churches seem to be run as businesses, with the bottom line being affordability (taking in enough funds for paying the priest, maintaining the physical building, keeping up appearances by following the traditions with a small "t"). The spiritual health of the parishioners, especially of the young members, doesn't seem to be given much importance. I hope that this phenomenon is only in a small minority of churches in the region where I live, and that there remain Orthodox persons with the mind of Christ elsewhere.
Thank you, Dorothy. Some of the loveliest Orthodox people I've known are probably the most theologically "ignorant". It seems like Christ and "Orthodoxy" are just in their DNA. I've often wondered if our American culture eventually sucks the life out of that kind of organic life of faith, or if it is even possible to have that kind of spirituality here.
Doesn't the Orthodox church also say if you aren't one of them, you are going to Hell?
Click on the "hot link" on "do intuitively in the image" in the post. The link will take you to an answer.
Hi Amber, For some reason I felt compelled to reply, though please know I am in no way qualified to do so. I am not formally part of an Orthodox church (I've been to one Divine Liturgy in my life) though I think my heart lies with this understanding of Christianity. Coming from a background similar to what Mr. Robinson described here I have had reservations like yours about churches in general not just Orthodox. I found some statements made by the Orthodox Church of America reassuring regarding how the Church as a whole feels towards non-Orthodox Christians (as opposed to random opinons from the internet).
"The Church believes as well that salvation depends upon the actual life of the person, and God alone is capable of judging since He alone knows the secrets of each mind and heart. Only God is capable of judging how well a man lives according to the measure of grace, faith, understanding, and strength given to him."
"But once again, let it be clear that every man is judged by God alone according to the actual truth and love in his life. This goes for Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike. And although the Orthodox confess that the fulness of truth and love is found in the life of the church, nominal church membership or formal assent to some doctrines does not at all guarantee salvation."
The whole statement came from here:https://www.oca.org/questions/otherconfessions/what-about-other-christians
Hoepfully these will give you some comfort as they did to me?
Thank you for taking time to share this, Cristian. I appreciate it. I had heard talk in an Orthodox church that if you aren't Orthodox, you are going to hell and this thought was reiterated recently on a discussion on YouTube. I thank you for taking time to copy what you did from the OCA. That makes me feel a lot better.
No, it does not